Post war Iraq

[maggotcorpz]

Today I noticed that "the coalition" have pledged to involve the UN in re-building Iraq. On the one hand I feel "wtf the UN refuse to do anything about it but after it's all said and done they want to get in on the act" on the other hand there's the feeling that we need to keep the UN link strong.
What's your opinion?

[Poop Loops]

Any help is welcome IMO. I don't want to spend my money on rebuilding the country.

[Martin]

Interesting listening to the Conservative leader Iain Duncan Smith today. When questioned about post-war Iraq, he never mentioned the UN at all.

I think that as soon as possible power should be transferred back to the Iraqi people (i.e. those not involved (politically) in Saddam's regime. Simply because it's their country. Not Americas or Britains and not the UNs.

Of course, they would need help from America, Britain or the UN at first, but once everything is sorted Iraq should be allowed to be run by it's own people, because in the long term that's what will happen anywhere, get them prepared for it.

[Saburn]

We can't let it turn into a colonial exercise. It's apparent that it might become such, America already have an old general in line to take provisional control, and they've already got the reconstruction contracts dished out to some high-powered republican party donors, 'shockingly'...

Power should be handed back to the people, and it should most certainly become a democracy, a system akin to Weimar Germany could be emplaced, without the obvious defects...

What must be prevented is the arrival of an Osama Bin-Laden style figure...

[Siren]

haha, if we where there for war, the least we can do is ease them into peace. We have a bit of a history of tearing sh*t up war stylez and then leaving them to their own accord.

We made a big deal about this being for THE IRAQI PPL!!! WE R HUMANITARIANZ, so we can't dare say "Oh, Saddam's gone, good luck!!!" Thats what we did a couple of years to Afghanistan, and look at how well that turned out.

here is a picture that has GU written all over it:
http://tati.pezzie.com/misc/usavegeta.jpg

[Poop Loops]

Damn that guy has a huge forehead... :eek:

[Martin]

Originally posted by Saburn
We can't let it turn into a colonial exercise. It's apparent that it might become such, America already have an old general in line to take provisional control, and they've already got the reconstruction contracts dished out to some high-powered republican party donors, 'shockingly'...

Power should be handed back to the people, and it should most certainly become a democracy, a system akin to Weimar Germany could be emplaced, without the obvious defects...

What must be prevented is the arrival of an Osama Bin-Laden style figure...

I'd just like to expand on some of the points made here simply because I think it's nailed what I think of the topic in question basically.

First off a few points about the Weimar Republic of Germany in the early 1900s.

It wasn't doomed to fail, simply because the parties of the moderate left and centre constantly gained a majority. It was only because the SPD (socialist) had different ideals to the bourgeois parties and refused to participate in any coaltion. (they had to be coaltions because it was proportional representation and a minority voting system)

Then in the 1930s, General von Hindenburg (who was an old general, very nationalist, monarchist and conservative), the president of the Reichstag started to take much more control over affairs and frequently used Article 48 (which allowed the president to dissolve the Reichstag) and hence undermined which was, politically, a very good system. He lead the destruction of democracy and part of this process was to build an authoritarian leadership throughout the country. The appointment of Adolf Hitler as chancellor was meant to be the final part of this process, but after von Hindenburg died, Hitler assumed full control and established his dictatorship and Nazism was born.

My conclusion is that the Weimar system will work again in the case of Iraq if no one takes advantage of the system like Hindenburg did and everyone cooperates unlike the German Socialist Party. Democracy (proportional representation, minoirty voting system etc.) will work, and it WILL work without the interference of Republicans and old generals.

[Gameguy537]

That usa Vegita it's copywright infringment, and it sucks too, :lol: and the freedom fries, and american toast, because people don't like france anymore. :shrug: People write stuff on my schools wall (actual spelling) "Sadam Housaine has no [can i go like this without getting in trouble?!?] c-word-for-thing-you-go-with-(male)" and "iraq suks."

[GT500]

Originally posted by Gameguy537
That usa Vegita it's copywright infringment, and it sucks too, :lol: and the freedom fries, and american toast, because people don't like france anymore. :shrug: People write stuff on my schools wall (actual spelling) "Sadam Housaine has no [can i go like this without getting in trouble?!?] c-word-for-thing-you-go-with-(male)" and "iraq suks."

lol i hear ya but ugh ya u can go ahead spell watever u want you wont get in trouble it will just bleep out certain words

[Gameguy537]

cool then i like boards like that.



Click me sig

[PhoenixPhlame73]

I'm not sure how I feel about post-war Iraq. On one hand, maybe we shouldn't let France, Germany, the UN, etc.... do anything, simply because they took no risks. They took teh generally safe conservative approach to the conflict, had no military forces committed (That said, the US has so many troops there that most other countries helping look almost insignificant, possibly excepting Britain, I have forgotten exactly how many they have deployed). Anyway, my point was that no matter how few, many of our allies have commited SOME troops to the war, whereas the opposition that now wants to help rebuild it - getting juicy contracts for companies that belong to them - lost nothing, nada, zip.

Now, on the other hand there is the concept that we really can't afford to alienate the UN and other countries any more than we already have. We need to involve them as much as possible in the reconstruction and just try to let the French forget how they've embarrased themselves, to let the UN forget it's impotence.

Right now I ascribe more towards the first idea.

[Poop Loops]

Post war Iraq as I see it: Just like Afghanistan. After one year, still no stable gov't, gangs ruling the country, and people really not knowing why we came here in the first place. Still poor, still destroyed.

[Gameguy537]

Hey, the guys right, why do we even bother? :confused:

[PhoenixPhlame73]

We bother because we're trying to do teh right thing, for us and for the world.

[Poop Loops]

No no, that's what our "leader" is trying to make you think. You don't attack a country, then leave, and attack a different country and say it's for the good of the world.

[Martin]

Originally posted by PhoenixPhlame73
They took teh generally safe conservative approach to the conflict, had no military forces committed (That said, the US has so many troops there that most other countries helping look almost insignificant, possibly excepting Britain, I have forgotten exactly how many they have deployed).


Britain made the main contributions in the war and encountered the most resistance. In Basra, there was more resistance than in Baghdad, and we finished off the job with ease in Umm Qasr when you were struggling.

Don't underestimate the British contribution.

If Iraq is American controlled after the war is over, I think it will be too right-wing and militant for the Iraqi people. They don't want anything that resembles anything like a dictatorship because of what they have experienced. If America is in control they will be no power for the people and this will remind the Iraqis of Saddam's regime hence they will be resistance because they want a democracy, and a democracy is what they should have.

[PhoenixPhlame73]

Originally posted by Martin


Britain made the main contributions in the war and encountered the most resistance. In Basra, there was more resistance than in Baghdad, and we finished off the job with ease in Umm Qasr when you were struggling.

Don't underestimate the British contribution.

<snip>

I'm sorry, wasn't trying to cut you all short. i understand that Britain (I believe) has the second largest number of soldiers deployed, i jsut don't remember how many.

Good fighters, too. As of a few days ago they had only 30 dead.

I'll try to look up some actual numbers.

[Poop Loops]

You see, the whole point of this war is for Bush to look like a hero. That's why we left the British to finish up the job and went straight for Baghdad.

[PhoenixPhlame73]

Ok. i found a list of military buildup for the US and Britain :

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EC15Ak02.html

USA :

211,000 "force strength" - half in Kuwait

1,000 aircraft

23,000 Air Force personnel

64,000 Army soldiers

125,000 navy personnel

500 navy helicopters

nearly 2142 tomahawk cruise missle launchers


Britain :

totalling 45,00 personnel total

17 navy ships led by a carrier

120 tanks (supposedly the best in the world)

100-odd fixed wing aircraft

27 helicopters

26,000 army soldiers in kuwait

4,00 marines

"Despite being miniscule in numbers next to the US presence, the British deployment is quite noteworthy. Not only is it significantly larger than was the British attendance in the 1991 Gulf War, but it also runs a risk of over-stretch as over a quarter of the entire British military will be engaged in the invasion of Iraq. This is especially unusual in light of the fact that Great Britain also has large numbers of its military spread across Afghanistan, the Balkans and Northern Ireland. "


Iraq :

weakened from it's 1991 war

350,000 iraqi soldiers of questionable training

26,000 soldiers in teh Republican Gaurd

2,000 navy personnel

unknown number of fast-attack patrol boats

1 soviet patrol boat with surface to air missile capability

350 fixed wing aircraft - US intelligence estimates 55% servicability

20,000 air force personnel




Ack, just realized that this is a month old, but I typed it all so no point just deleting it, I'll try to find something more recent. It demonstrates the points being addressed here.

Grr.